I am a Jewish Israeli and agree with Peter Beinart with all my heart and mind. Two comments andperhaps clarifications:
1. What is happening in Gaza is not a war. A war is between regular armies. There is no war in Gaza. Even if you say the war is with Hamas, Hamas does not have an army. Hamas is a guerril la organization. What is happening in Gaza from day one and in all previous rounds is murderous shelling in which Israel is shelling mainly the civilian population. To shell a huge building and murder dozens of families because there is one Hamas member in it - this is a crime against humanity.
2. As early as October 8, I wrote that it is forbidden to shell Gaza. The chain of revenge must be broken. What happened on October 7 is both revenge by the Palestinians for what Israel has been doing to them for many years and for the prison in which they have been living for 17 years, and also an act of resistance (which I do not accept at all) to the brutal occupation. For years Israel has been shelling and the Palestinians have responded by firing missiles over and over again and this chain of revenge must be broken off, or stopped. Israel is a country with one of the most powerful armies in the world, with nuclear weapons, a small guerrilla organization cannot destroy it. It is a thousand times stronger than the Palestinians, it is the one who must stop the chain of revenge.
As an Israeli, I see no other solution, but one state for all its citizens. A state in which there is a separation between religion and state with full equality for all citizens. A Jewish state, inevitably leads to Jewish supremacy, which brought this murderous government upon us.
I would like to thank you for passing on these comments and insights to Peter Beinart.
"For years Israel has been shelling and the Palestinians have responded by firing missiles......."
That sentence tells me everything I need to know about your perspective טל.
Wow. As a Jewish Israeli as you put it, I can tell you, you and the likes of Beinart and Ben-Ami are part of the problem and not part of the solution....which in your collective minds means more Oslo-like remedies.
Yes of course, those poor Palestinians only "responding" to unprovoked shelling by us mean nasty Israelis.
You know, those poor innocent Gazans, who were by and large thrilled with the events of October 7, and who not only participated in the orgy of bloodlust, but many helped in the hiding and torture of our hostages. Yes, thrilled with Oct.7....until their lives were turned upside down,they started dying,and their homes destroyed, then and ONLY then did they begin their "down with Hamas" crap.
In one country, all citizens will have equal rights. The laws will be passed by the elected parliament. The constitution will be equal for all citizens. There will be no priority and no advantage for some over others. That's how it is in a democracy.
You didn’t answer my question: if the Arab dominated parliament of this one party state passed a law expropriating your home and those of your loved ones as vengeance for the War that the Arabs mounted and lost in 1948 would you relinquish it willingly? What if abrogated the right of return?
Btw, Hamas said that in the event of the destruction of Israel it would enslave the scientists and expel or kill everyone else. You can look it up.
Israel has been treating the Palestinians as you describe for 77 years. Israel took their homes, after expelling them from Israel in 1948, gave them to the Jews and is not willing to give the Palestinians anything in return. In East Jerusalem, King Hussein settled refugees from 1948 in Jewish homes that were forced to leave after the 1948 war. The Jews demand their homes back and the Supreme Court evicts the Palestinians from the homes and gives them to the Jews. Even if Jewish associations request the homes that were not theirs, but belonged to Jews before 1948, the Supreme Court evicts the Palestinian families who have lived there since 1948 and gives them to the Jewish associations, so they can give them to Jewish families.
Your question has no basis in reality. From the sea to the river there are 50% Jews and 50% Palestinians. There cannot be a situation where only Palestinians will run the country. In addition, after the Nakba of 1948, in which the indigenous Palestinians for generations went through a catastrophe, they are ready to accept me, as a Jew, as an equal to them, I see this as a great privilege and thank them for that. A Palestinian refugee whose parents, grandparents, great-grandparents were born in Palestine, cannot return, but any Jew whose ancestors were expelled 2,000 years before, can return. Is this how you create democracy? In a democracy, everyone is equal. Jewish supremacy is anti-democracy and it has brought us to the situation we are in today.
Jewish supremacy has shaped Israel as an apartheid state, with Jews ruling over Palestinians, both Israelis and those in the West Bank and Gaza. After decades of apartheid and an extremely brutal occupation regime, how can you expect the occupied people not to rebel against the horrors they have lived through, for so many years?
In no way do I justify October 7, 2023. No, no! But we must see the whole picture to understand. Only then can we begin to think about reconciliation and forgiveness.
I wouldn’t even know where to start with your distorted and cliched history, but thank you for clarifying for all of us here that your objection is not to the settlements post 1967 but Israel as a whole! Not unexpected! Bye.
There are more Jews between the river and the sea than Arabs (especially with a six-digit number of people fleeing Gaza after the war), so this “one state solution” would likely just lead to a Greater Israel. Israeli Arabs have lower turnout than Israeli Jews and a fraction vote for Zionist parties. I’d imagine Palestinians would have even lower turnout. Jewish Israeli TFR is above 3, Arab Israeli TFR is below 2.5 and dropping quickly, Palestinian TFR is just above 3 and dropping quickly. Needless to say that a 55% Jewish and 45% Arab state would still be kind of dysfunctional. But it wouldn’t go how “anti-Zionists” imagine it. You couldn’t get a parliamentary majority to vote for a mass “return” of Palestinian refugees. Wouldn’t pass. So it would remain Israel, with a Jewish majority.
In the matter of - most Israeli Jews seem to be in favor of equality with the Palestinians. This is absolutely not true. In the major demonstrations before October 7, the organizers of the demonstrations and the demonstrators themselves, did not agree in any way that Palestinian citizens of Israel would participate in the demonstrations and did not agree in any way to mention the occupation and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. There were many articles and many debates about this, but nothing helped. They fought for democracy for Jews only. Is this democracy?
In addition, from the first day of Israel, it has not been a democratic state. Among the first laws enacted in 1949 and still valid today are: The Absentee Property Law - that is, the property of Palestinians who were expelled from Israel was nationalized for the benefit of Israel and they are not allowed to demand it back in any way. On the other hand, Jews who had property in East Jerusalem, for example - can demand it back and the Supreme Court approves them to return to it, even Palestinian families of refugees from Israel, whom King Hussein settled in, live there.
The second law is of course the law that any Jew from anywhere in the world can come to live in Israel and from day one is a full citizen and can vote for the Knesset. Of course, the Palestinians cannot dream of returning to Israel.
In addition, since 1948, not a single settlement has been built for Israeli Palestinians and they are not allowed to build in their own settlements. More than 800 settlements have been built for Israeli Jews since 1948. Israel, with the help of the Israel National Fund, not only destroyed the Palestinian settlements to the ground, but also planted forests over them, so that no remnant of these settlements will remain.
Jewish supremacy is instilled in every Israeli Jewish child from the day he is born, in kindergarten, through school and with very strong force in the army. This has been the case since 1948.
The parties that call themselves "center" and are in opposition, both declare themselves in favor of Jewish supremacy. They support the current government in every step it takes and do not serve as opposition at all. There is no way to reach a democratic state, but a state that separates religion from state and all its citizens are equal under the law. That will not happen, the Jewish majority in Israel is in favor of Jewish supremacy. Until there is very massive pressure, economic, not selling weapons to Israel, not buying weapons from Israel, there is no chance of change here. It will take several more generations until people perhaps realize that all human beings are equal, no matter what their religion, their gender, or the color of their skin.
thank you so much for being a mentsch, a true Jew...why don't you join us on the Palestine Museum films/zooms/discussions...also Doctors Against Genocide...How I pray that this realization will come sooner, that the souls being born will turn away from this evil indoctrination. I am an observant Jew. Palestinians belong in Palestine. We Jews were lied to. What was done to them and is being done to them destroys any goodness that Am Yisrael was known for...our name is being placed along with the Nazis now, due to our own behavior
Thank you for supporting this civil honest dialogue. This is sadly missing from the more typical public discourse. These are definitely tough questions and even though I may not fully agree with all that Peter Beinart believes, he brings moral clarity and challenges the core narrative that many of us grew up with. He compels us to take an honest hard look at a very painful subject. We now need to determine how best to move forward on both an individual and a collective level, while acknowledging the Jewish community is not a monolith with many strong fervent disparate voices.
A valuable discussion. I've long supported J Street and still do. Its perspective is essential to a democratic left foreign policy. I've read Peter and Jewish Currents in recent years, his voice is important. In this conversation, Peter backed off a bit on his proposal for a "one-state solution". Find the time stamp and see for yourself! (:}
To me he recognized the value of a Palestianian state that is democratic with equal rights but is a homeland for Palestinians--meaning to me priority immigration rights for Palestinians and granting of dual citizenship--presumably alongside a similar State of Israel that has equal rights for all but priority immigration rights for Jews.
When I say priority immigration I do not just mean for refugees of the kind international law encourages for all states, but priority immigration those with an affinity for living in either Israel or Palestine do to being in a dispersed diaspora of Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The issue should not be one's identity as a Zionist or "anti-Zionist" but what people of good feel must be done now to stop the death and suffering and reduce the risk of a wider war.
Such a two-state, or as J Street puts it 23 state solution, would no doubt involve negotiations about land and people swaps, but no one should be coerced into leaving their current places of residence, and this must involve limited right of return, compensation for expulsions of Palestinians and Jews post-1948, etc.
The most immediate thing, it seems to me, is urgent UN Security Council action on a Section 7 intervention regarding Gaza humanitarian relief, which I have just advocated: https://michaelalandover.substack.com/p/un-security-council-action-now. This can't wait on interminable "negotiations" on a resumed ceasefire.
National Rally remains the minority, actually. The fact that everyone who's NOT National Rally split their votes among other parties doesn't change the fact that the majority of us didn't want them. I agree their popularity is alarming. Nevertheless, while *as I literally said in my post, which I kind of doubt you read,* there are segments of the population who would like to make France an ethnostate, they have not currently succeeded. That is NOT what defines being French. And unless you are also French, you're not in a position to lecture me about my own country.
We need a demonstration in New York and LA and wherever else it can be organized that says stop the war free the hostages give aid. We need to stand up and say it. Who will organize this?
I was disappointed in this conversation though I laud its intent and tone.. Only at the end did they get into their disagreements about Zionism , but the elephant in the room to me is how should Israel have responded to 10/7. What kind of military response would have been appropriate to an enemy that is hiding in tunnels everywhere and promises more 10/7's. How could and going forward should they have balanced humanitarian concerns with military needs and to what extent has it been influenced by the extreme right.
Also i found the the whole discussion about Zionism and especially Beinart's approach while morally laudable to be abstract and a-historical. Zionism arose out of a concrete problem- WWII and thousands of Jews with nowhere to go. Sure the Palestinians got a bad deal, but it was the result of War and frankly nearly every nation on the face of the Earth was formed as a result of conquest and War. History is not nice. Likewise you can't divorce current Israeli attitudes and treatment of Gaza toward Palestinians from past wars, the intifadas, Hamas and terrorism anymore than you can divorce the anger of 10/7 from Israeli treatment of Gaza. To me Beinart lives in a fantasy world of moral absolutes. This doesn't mean I agree with Israel's conduct of the War esp now, just that I would like a more realistic discussion of the issues.
It’s not an enemy hiding in tunnels, that’s a fantasy. they’re an occupied people that Israel has a legal obligation to care for. It has done terribly with that obligation, there is no meaningful pressure on the rest of the world to enforce that, and this that trapped, besieged population struck back. That’s what happens anywhere in the world where people are caged up. It doesn’t matter if Palestinians or Hamas are virtuous or not - clearly caging them up hasn’t fixed the problem. Perhaps treating them as humans beings could.
Eliot , the fantasy is not recognizing who Hamas is and what their goals have always been which is the destruction of Israel. Instead of investing in their own people they built tunnels so they could hide there when Israel struck back and their own people would suffer. They responded to the very idea of a 2 state solution with murder inside Israel. The original charter stated "If you see a jew hiding behind a rock- kill him." They have never wanted peace with Israel. Israel is far from blameless but please don't be naive about who Hamas is. Without that you have no understanding of the situation and all your high minded condemnations of Israel are empty.
Now if you agree with Hamas that Israel has no right to exist then we don't have much to talk about except that War is really the only response on both sides.
Elliot, I'm well acquainted with the history and have no intention of getting into a drawn out argument about who did what to whom when . I'm no expert but know enough to be able to say with confidence that its a very complicated history and no side's hands are completely clean or blameless. Virtually any accounting you read is leaving something out and you should delve deeper. Any attempt to simplify it into good guys and bad guys is pointless and does no one any good. I appreciate both Beinart and Ben Ami's commitment to dialogue and morality even if i don't always agree with either of them.
Jeremy repeats the false assertion that Israel has the right of self defense. That is fase. Under international law, an occupying power does not have the right of self defense. But conversely an occupied power has the right to resist. After the peaceful march for return in 2018 was met with the IDF shooting, killing and wounding thousands of marchers, what other recourse did the Palestinians have? If it was about justice, Israel could have let the ICC deal with Hamas. Finally, it was clearly about revenge and ethnic cleansing, never about the hostages, as Hamas said on October 9, they'd return all the hostages if Israel didn't invade Gaza.
I finished watching the recording moments ago. Excellent conversation. I was especially impressed how both Jeremy and Peter kept the conversation civil and focused only on the issues. Those of us who work in this area need to model this kind of dialogue. It’s easier said than done but still essential. Thanks!
I am a Jewish Israeli and agree with Peter Beinart with all my heart and mind. Two comments andperhaps clarifications:
1. What is happening in Gaza is not a war. A war is between regular armies. There is no war in Gaza. Even if you say the war is with Hamas, Hamas does not have an army. Hamas is a guerril la organization. What is happening in Gaza from day one and in all previous rounds is murderous shelling in which Israel is shelling mainly the civilian population. To shell a huge building and murder dozens of families because there is one Hamas member in it - this is a crime against humanity.
2. As early as October 8, I wrote that it is forbidden to shell Gaza. The chain of revenge must be broken. What happened on October 7 is both revenge by the Palestinians for what Israel has been doing to them for many years and for the prison in which they have been living for 17 years, and also an act of resistance (which I do not accept at all) to the brutal occupation. For years Israel has been shelling and the Palestinians have responded by firing missiles over and over again and this chain of revenge must be broken off, or stopped. Israel is a country with one of the most powerful armies in the world, with nuclear weapons, a small guerrilla organization cannot destroy it. It is a thousand times stronger than the Palestinians, it is the one who must stop the chain of revenge.
As an Israeli, I see no other solution, but one state for all its citizens. A state in which there is a separation between religion and state with full equality for all citizens. A Jewish state, inevitably leads to Jewish supremacy, which brought this murderous government upon us.
I would like to thank you for passing on these comments and insights to Peter Beinart.
I agree with you with all my ❤️ heart
"For years Israel has been shelling and the Palestinians have responded by firing missiles......."
That sentence tells me everything I need to know about your perspective טל.
Wow. As a Jewish Israeli as you put it, I can tell you, you and the likes of Beinart and Ben-Ami are part of the problem and not part of the solution....which in your collective minds means more Oslo-like remedies.
Yes of course, those poor Palestinians only "responding" to unprovoked shelling by us mean nasty Israelis.
You know, those poor innocent Gazans, who were by and large thrilled with the events of October 7, and who not only participated in the orgy of bloodlust, but many helped in the hiding and torture of our hostages. Yes, thrilled with Oct.7....until their lives were turned upside down,they started dying,and their homes destroyed, then and ONLY then did they begin their "down with Hamas" crap.
Say no more.
Do you think you'd retain your property rights, national freedoms, and the Jewish right of return under a one state solution?
In one country, all citizens will have equal rights. The laws will be passed by the elected parliament. The constitution will be equal for all citizens. There will be no priority and no advantage for some over others. That's how it is in a democracy.
You didn’t answer my question: if the Arab dominated parliament of this one party state passed a law expropriating your home and those of your loved ones as vengeance for the War that the Arabs mounted and lost in 1948 would you relinquish it willingly? What if abrogated the right of return?
Btw, Hamas said that in the event of the destruction of Israel it would enslave the scientists and expel or kill everyone else. You can look it up.
Israel has been treating the Palestinians as you describe for 77 years. Israel took their homes, after expelling them from Israel in 1948, gave them to the Jews and is not willing to give the Palestinians anything in return. In East Jerusalem, King Hussein settled refugees from 1948 in Jewish homes that were forced to leave after the 1948 war. The Jews demand their homes back and the Supreme Court evicts the Palestinians from the homes and gives them to the Jews. Even if Jewish associations request the homes that were not theirs, but belonged to Jews before 1948, the Supreme Court evicts the Palestinian families who have lived there since 1948 and gives them to the Jewish associations, so they can give them to Jewish families.
Your question has no basis in reality. From the sea to the river there are 50% Jews and 50% Palestinians. There cannot be a situation where only Palestinians will run the country. In addition, after the Nakba of 1948, in which the indigenous Palestinians for generations went through a catastrophe, they are ready to accept me, as a Jew, as an equal to them, I see this as a great privilege and thank them for that. A Palestinian refugee whose parents, grandparents, great-grandparents were born in Palestine, cannot return, but any Jew whose ancestors were expelled 2,000 years before, can return. Is this how you create democracy? In a democracy, everyone is equal. Jewish supremacy is anti-democracy and it has brought us to the situation we are in today.
Jewish supremacy has shaped Israel as an apartheid state, with Jews ruling over Palestinians, both Israelis and those in the West Bank and Gaza. After decades of apartheid and an extremely brutal occupation regime, how can you expect the occupied people not to rebel against the horrors they have lived through, for so many years?
In no way do I justify October 7, 2023. No, no! But we must see the whole picture to understand. Only then can we begin to think about reconciliation and forgiveness.
I wouldn’t even know where to start with your distorted and cliched history, but thank you for clarifying for all of us here that your objection is not to the settlements post 1967 but Israel as a whole! Not unexpected! Bye.
There are more Jews between the river and the sea than Arabs (especially with a six-digit number of people fleeing Gaza after the war), so this “one state solution” would likely just lead to a Greater Israel. Israeli Arabs have lower turnout than Israeli Jews and a fraction vote for Zionist parties. I’d imagine Palestinians would have even lower turnout. Jewish Israeli TFR is above 3, Arab Israeli TFR is below 2.5 and dropping quickly, Palestinian TFR is just above 3 and dropping quickly. Needless to say that a 55% Jewish and 45% Arab state would still be kind of dysfunctional. But it wouldn’t go how “anti-Zionists” imagine it. You couldn’t get a parliamentary majority to vote for a mass “return” of Palestinian refugees. Wouldn’t pass. So it would remain Israel, with a Jewish majority.
Peter Beinart- His words, his morality, his passion for equality is so welcome. I wish the world were filled with more Peter Beinarts.
In the matter of - most Israeli Jews seem to be in favor of equality with the Palestinians. This is absolutely not true. In the major demonstrations before October 7, the organizers of the demonstrations and the demonstrators themselves, did not agree in any way that Palestinian citizens of Israel would participate in the demonstrations and did not agree in any way to mention the occupation and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. There were many articles and many debates about this, but nothing helped. They fought for democracy for Jews only. Is this democracy?
In addition, from the first day of Israel, it has not been a democratic state. Among the first laws enacted in 1949 and still valid today are: The Absentee Property Law - that is, the property of Palestinians who were expelled from Israel was nationalized for the benefit of Israel and they are not allowed to demand it back in any way. On the other hand, Jews who had property in East Jerusalem, for example - can demand it back and the Supreme Court approves them to return to it, even Palestinian families of refugees from Israel, whom King Hussein settled in, live there.
The second law is of course the law that any Jew from anywhere in the world can come to live in Israel and from day one is a full citizen and can vote for the Knesset. Of course, the Palestinians cannot dream of returning to Israel.
In addition, since 1948, not a single settlement has been built for Israeli Palestinians and they are not allowed to build in their own settlements. More than 800 settlements have been built for Israeli Jews since 1948. Israel, with the help of the Israel National Fund, not only destroyed the Palestinian settlements to the ground, but also planted forests over them, so that no remnant of these settlements will remain.
Jewish supremacy is instilled in every Israeli Jewish child from the day he is born, in kindergarten, through school and with very strong force in the army. This has been the case since 1948.
The parties that call themselves "center" and are in opposition, both declare themselves in favor of Jewish supremacy. They support the current government in every step it takes and do not serve as opposition at all. There is no way to reach a democratic state, but a state that separates religion from state and all its citizens are equal under the law. That will not happen, the Jewish majority in Israel is in favor of Jewish supremacy. Until there is very massive pressure, economic, not selling weapons to Israel, not buying weapons from Israel, there is no chance of change here. It will take several more generations until people perhaps realize that all human beings are equal, no matter what their religion, their gender, or the color of their skin.
thank you so much for being a mentsch, a true Jew...why don't you join us on the Palestine Museum films/zooms/discussions...also Doctors Against Genocide...How I pray that this realization will come sooner, that the souls being born will turn away from this evil indoctrination. I am an observant Jew. Palestinians belong in Palestine. We Jews were lied to. What was done to them and is being done to them destroys any goodness that Am Yisrael was known for...our name is being placed along with the Nazis now, due to our own behavior
We don't need your esteem. Where was your esteem for the last two thousand years when we were being expelled, murdered and degraded?
I wasn't talking to you.
בצלם אלוהים.
This is the improvisational conversation - the Yes, And - that I want to be having.
Thank you both for modeling civility and respect and a mutual love for values we share.
Thank you for supporting this civil honest dialogue. This is sadly missing from the more typical public discourse. These are definitely tough questions and even though I may not fully agree with all that Peter Beinart believes, he brings moral clarity and challenges the core narrative that many of us grew up with. He compels us to take an honest hard look at a very painful subject. We now need to determine how best to move forward on both an individual and a collective level, while acknowledging the Jewish community is not a monolith with many strong fervent disparate voices.
Thank you, thank you, thank you both.
Beautiful dialogue where it is possible to agree simultaneously with multiple perspectives!
Love you and miss you, Molly
Thanks for hosting this voice! Appreciate the discussion!
A valuable discussion. I've long supported J Street and still do. Its perspective is essential to a democratic left foreign policy. I've read Peter and Jewish Currents in recent years, his voice is important. In this conversation, Peter backed off a bit on his proposal for a "one-state solution". Find the time stamp and see for yourself! (:}
To me he recognized the value of a Palestianian state that is democratic with equal rights but is a homeland for Palestinians--meaning to me priority immigration rights for Palestinians and granting of dual citizenship--presumably alongside a similar State of Israel that has equal rights for all but priority immigration rights for Jews.
When I say priority immigration I do not just mean for refugees of the kind international law encourages for all states, but priority immigration those with an affinity for living in either Israel or Palestine do to being in a dispersed diaspora of Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The issue should not be one's identity as a Zionist or "anti-Zionist" but what people of good feel must be done now to stop the death and suffering and reduce the risk of a wider war.
Such a two-state, or as J Street puts it 23 state solution, would no doubt involve negotiations about land and people swaps, but no one should be coerced into leaving their current places of residence, and this must involve limited right of return, compensation for expulsions of Palestinians and Jews post-1948, etc.
The most immediate thing, it seems to me, is urgent UN Security Council action on a Section 7 intervention regarding Gaza humanitarian relief, which I have just advocated: https://michaelalandover.substack.com/p/un-security-council-action-now. This can't wait on interminable "negotiations" on a resumed ceasefire.
National Rally remains the minority, actually. The fact that everyone who's NOT National Rally split their votes among other parties doesn't change the fact that the majority of us didn't want them. I agree their popularity is alarming. Nevertheless, while *as I literally said in my post, which I kind of doubt you read,* there are segments of the population who would like to make France an ethnostate, they have not currently succeeded. That is NOT what defines being French. And unless you are also French, you're not in a position to lecture me about my own country.
We need a demonstration in New York and LA and wherever else it can be organized that says stop the war free the hostages give aid. We need to stand up and say it. Who will organize this?
I was disappointed in this conversation though I laud its intent and tone.. Only at the end did they get into their disagreements about Zionism , but the elephant in the room to me is how should Israel have responded to 10/7. What kind of military response would have been appropriate to an enemy that is hiding in tunnels everywhere and promises more 10/7's. How could and going forward should they have balanced humanitarian concerns with military needs and to what extent has it been influenced by the extreme right.
Also i found the the whole discussion about Zionism and especially Beinart's approach while morally laudable to be abstract and a-historical. Zionism arose out of a concrete problem- WWII and thousands of Jews with nowhere to go. Sure the Palestinians got a bad deal, but it was the result of War and frankly nearly every nation on the face of the Earth was formed as a result of conquest and War. History is not nice. Likewise you can't divorce current Israeli attitudes and treatment of Gaza toward Palestinians from past wars, the intifadas, Hamas and terrorism anymore than you can divorce the anger of 10/7 from Israeli treatment of Gaza. To me Beinart lives in a fantasy world of moral absolutes. This doesn't mean I agree with Israel's conduct of the War esp now, just that I would like a more realistic discussion of the issues.
It’s not an enemy hiding in tunnels, that’s a fantasy. they’re an occupied people that Israel has a legal obligation to care for. It has done terribly with that obligation, there is no meaningful pressure on the rest of the world to enforce that, and this that trapped, besieged population struck back. That’s what happens anywhere in the world where people are caged up. It doesn’t matter if Palestinians or Hamas are virtuous or not - clearly caging them up hasn’t fixed the problem. Perhaps treating them as humans beings could.
Eliot , the fantasy is not recognizing who Hamas is and what their goals have always been which is the destruction of Israel. Instead of investing in their own people they built tunnels so they could hide there when Israel struck back and their own people would suffer. They responded to the very idea of a 2 state solution with murder inside Israel. The original charter stated "If you see a jew hiding behind a rock- kill him." They have never wanted peace with Israel. Israel is far from blameless but please don't be naive about who Hamas is. Without that you have no understanding of the situation and all your high minded condemnations of Israel are empty.
Now if you agree with Hamas that Israel has no right to exist then we don't have much to talk about except that War is really the only response on both sides.
You know Israel used to fund Hamas in the 80s, right?
Elliot, I'm well acquainted with the history and have no intention of getting into a drawn out argument about who did what to whom when . I'm no expert but know enough to be able to say with confidence that its a very complicated history and no side's hands are completely clean or blameless. Virtually any accounting you read is leaving something out and you should delve deeper. Any attempt to simplify it into good guys and bad guys is pointless and does no one any good. I appreciate both Beinart and Ben Ami's commitment to dialogue and morality even if i don't always agree with either of them.
Such thoughtful conversation it gives me hope
Jeremy repeats the false assertion that Israel has the right of self defense. That is fase. Under international law, an occupying power does not have the right of self defense. But conversely an occupied power has the right to resist. After the peaceful march for return in 2018 was met with the IDF shooting, killing and wounding thousands of marchers, what other recourse did the Palestinians have? If it was about justice, Israel could have let the ICC deal with Hamas. Finally, it was clearly about revenge and ethnic cleansing, never about the hostages, as Hamas said on October 9, they'd return all the hostages if Israel didn't invade Gaza.
I finished watching the recording moments ago. Excellent conversation. I was especially impressed how both Jeremy and Peter kept the conversation civil and focused only on the issues. Those of us who work in this area need to model this kind of dialogue. It’s easier said than done but still essential. Thanks!
Thanks for the conversation, insights and modeling the ways we need/must learn to stay open and curious.