To win Jewish and also zionist votes for the democrats.
The framing of J Street language deliberately keeps israel unaccountable. Like Germany during the Nazi era, it was held accountable and could then move on. when israel is held accountable it can then move on. The right language needs to be used starting with the word genocide.
Jeremy has said that he has no problem with people using the word “genocide” to characterize Israel’s conduct following the Hamas atrocities of October 7, 2023.
I am a dues paying member of J Street and I frequently use the word to describe Israel’s response to October 7, 2023.
Thank you for the comment. I would ask you to consider the following frame of mind. If you can achieve this then everything downstream flows in a humanitarian corridor.
‘The October 7th 2023 operation by the Palestinians was another response to Israel’s ongoing apartheid and brutal crimes against humanity every year since 1948’.
That year 2023, before October israel had already murdered in cold blood some 235 innocent Palestinians
There is absolutely no doubt that since 1948 the overwhelming majority of atrocities in this horrible conflict have been committed by Israelis against Palestinians. I would not deny that for even one second.
But, no, I do not see the Hamas terrorist rampage on October 7, 2023 as an act of legitimate resistance.
There in lies the sticking point. The narrative that Hamas are terrorists, and they embarked on terrorist rampage. Try and think of this only as a political and media narrative. Only a story. Because if you believe this narrative, that has no evidence, you inadvertently consent to genocide.
Try to view this from an investigative journalist perspective with the following points:
1) Hamas is labelled and media propagandised as a terrorists group only by israel and its geopolitical allies.
2) Israel had intelligence of a Hamas operation of resistance and plan to take hundreds of hostages.
3) Israel invoked the Hannibal Directive on October 7th.
4) Hamas’s operation was lethally targeting IDF soldiers and also taking some captive.
5) Under international law Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against their occupiers.
6) However, an overlapping law prohibits the killing of innocent civilians. Any such killing should be held accountable by law.
7) disregard the label ‘terrorists’, disregard the media propaganda, such as beheaded babies, mass rape, mass killing.
8) the evidence suggests the large scale damage to houses and cars and civilians came from israeli fire power when the Hannibal directive was invoked.
9) Hamas needed hostages alive for political bargaining. The initial death toll was around 1,400. Then reduced to 1,200. Why? Because it took days to separate and identify the bodies of Hamas and israelis charred together from israeli helicopter and tank rockets.
10) we do not have access to the forensic evidence of this atrocity. It is withheld, and the only thing we have access to is the manufactured narrative. Th eve narrative you used, that you were told by politicians and the media who support the zionist occupation.
11) perhaps in 20-30 years from now forensic evidence show in a documentary exactly how many were actually killed by israel and how many by Palestinians
No, Edward, two things can be true at once. It is possible to call out Hamas for being a violent terrorist entity and, at the same time, call out Israel as a genocidal regime.
These are not, in any way, mutually exclusive concepts. If you are unwilling to call out human rights atrocities when it doesn’t fit into your political narrative, it makes you a hypocrite and, hence, you have no moral credibility..
I’ve been thinking about this. Thinking hard. What is the difference between a terrorist entity, and a resistance organization that commits atrocities?
The French Resistance killed hundreds, if not thousands of civilians. Were they terrorists?
What about the Nat Turner rebellion? Terrorists or imperfect freedom fighters?
I think I have a hypothesis: their humanity.
Allow me to concede that the members of Hamas who killed civilians on Oct 7 had lost their humanity. People WITH humanity can not intentionally kill civilians.
Ironically, I think someone IS a terrorist IF they retain their humanity while killing civilians. But if someone’s humanity is stripped from them, over decades, with humiliation and loss, then they are not terrorists.
It was Israel that stripped those men of their humanity.
There are many horrible things that man can do to man, but taking everything from them … including, ultimately, their humanity … is possibly the greatest of all crimes.
It did but shame on anyone who voted for Trump a corrupt incompetent convicted felon who tried to overthrow democracy on 1/6 which should have automatically been disqualifying over a well qualified Harris.
I will listen to the podcast later but to answer your question, yes it did. That combined with Biden’s team’s hubris about his failing health and an unfortunate weak candidate, not by her own doing. The question then becomes, how do we prevent this from happening again. It’s like slavery, if we don’t address it and own it, we become complicit in denying history and its implications on humanity.
Ilan, Mazel Tov to your daughter on her high school graduation. And Jeremy, I hope that you and your kiddos are having fun “Dancing in the Dark” tonight at the Springsteen concert.
As a native Chicagoan and lifelong fan of Da Bulls, I could not care less about the fate of the New York Knickerbockers in the NBA playoffs. But, I have always been a fan of former NJ Senator “Dollar” Bill Bradley.
Also, it is the Netanyahu regime that is a cancer on the international Jewish community, not the wonderful folks at J Street.
Regarding Israel-Palestine in American politics, I realize the issue is a complicated one from both a policy and political standpoint. But, if anyone thinks that a Democrat can get elected as President without appropriately addressing the plight of the Palestinians in his or her campaign “(He or she has) got another thing comin’!”
On that point, Parrhizzia, I would respectfully disagree with you, because I think that if the issue were that simple it would have been resolved a long time ago.
Also, please forgive me for taking so long to respond to your question regarding Zionism and Judaism. It is an extremely difficult one for me to articulate a proper answer to and, hence, I have been procrastinating on formulating a response to it.
Sorry, but Ilan Goldberg "doesn't have the data" to explore the claim that Harris's position on Gaza or lack thereof may have cost her the election? Why not? There is good data available: https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling
And - I do agree that more than taking a position Harris and the Dems needed to do better policy-wise. Even as a lame duck Biden could have stopped the flow of the weapons that enabled the genocide - he didn't. Not only that, but he and most Dems actively prevented dialogue or action about that possibility or involving the Leahy laws, etc.
This is where you come in, J-Street! Accountability means withdrawing your support from Dems who voted against Sanders' JRDs and actively supporting candidates who are primary-ing establishment Dems and who have better policy commitments on restricting the very arms to Israel that are enabling ONGOING genocide in Gaza and now th Gaza-fication of southern Lebanon.
Stop acting you don't have power! Failure to use that power has and is costing lives.
To win Jewish and also zionist votes for the democrats.
The framing of J Street language deliberately keeps israel unaccountable. Like Germany during the Nazi era, it was held accountable and could then move on. when israel is held accountable it can then move on. The right language needs to be used starting with the word genocide.
https://www.facebook.com/share/v/18MvtjaWkg/?mibextid=UalRPS
Jeremy has said that he has no problem with people using the word “genocide” to characterize Israel’s conduct following the Hamas atrocities of October 7, 2023.
I am a dues paying member of J Street and I frequently use the word to describe Israel’s response to October 7, 2023.
Thank you for the comment. I would ask you to consider the following frame of mind. If you can achieve this then everything downstream flows in a humanitarian corridor.
‘The October 7th 2023 operation by the Palestinians was another response to Israel’s ongoing apartheid and brutal crimes against humanity every year since 1948’.
That year 2023, before October israel had already murdered in cold blood some 235 innocent Palestinians
Edward,
There is absolutely no doubt that since 1948 the overwhelming majority of atrocities in this horrible conflict have been committed by Israelis against Palestinians. I would not deny that for even one second.
But, no, I do not see the Hamas terrorist rampage on October 7, 2023 as an act of legitimate resistance.
There in lies the sticking point. The narrative that Hamas are terrorists, and they embarked on terrorist rampage. Try and think of this only as a political and media narrative. Only a story. Because if you believe this narrative, that has no evidence, you inadvertently consent to genocide.
Try to view this from an investigative journalist perspective with the following points:
1) Hamas is labelled and media propagandised as a terrorists group only by israel and its geopolitical allies.
2) Israel had intelligence of a Hamas operation of resistance and plan to take hundreds of hostages.
3) Israel invoked the Hannibal Directive on October 7th.
4) Hamas’s operation was lethally targeting IDF soldiers and also taking some captive.
5) Under international law Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against their occupiers.
6) However, an overlapping law prohibits the killing of innocent civilians. Any such killing should be held accountable by law.
7) disregard the label ‘terrorists’, disregard the media propaganda, such as beheaded babies, mass rape, mass killing.
8) the evidence suggests the large scale damage to houses and cars and civilians came from israeli fire power when the Hannibal directive was invoked.
9) Hamas needed hostages alive for political bargaining. The initial death toll was around 1,400. Then reduced to 1,200. Why? Because it took days to separate and identify the bodies of Hamas and israelis charred together from israeli helicopter and tank rockets.
10) we do not have access to the forensic evidence of this atrocity. It is withheld, and the only thing we have access to is the manufactured narrative. Th eve narrative you used, that you were told by politicians and the media who support the zionist occupation.
11) perhaps in 20-30 years from now forensic evidence show in a documentary exactly how many were actually killed by israel and how many by Palestinians
No, Edward, two things can be true at once. It is possible to call out Hamas for being a violent terrorist entity and, at the same time, call out Israel as a genocidal regime.
These are not, in any way, mutually exclusive concepts. If you are unwilling to call out human rights atrocities when it doesn’t fit into your political narrative, it makes you a hypocrite and, hence, you have no moral credibility..
Good night, and good luck!
“Hamas for being a violent terrorist entity”
I’ve been thinking about this. Thinking hard. What is the difference between a terrorist entity, and a resistance organization that commits atrocities?
The French Resistance killed hundreds, if not thousands of civilians. Were they terrorists?
What about the Nat Turner rebellion? Terrorists or imperfect freedom fighters?
I think I have a hypothesis: their humanity.
Allow me to concede that the members of Hamas who killed civilians on Oct 7 had lost their humanity. People WITH humanity can not intentionally kill civilians.
Ironically, I think someone IS a terrorist IF they retain their humanity while killing civilians. But if someone’s humanity is stripped from them, over decades, with humiliation and loss, then they are not terrorists.
It was Israel that stripped those men of their humanity.
There are many horrible things that man can do to man, but taking everything from them … including, ultimately, their humanity … is possibly the greatest of all crimes.
Strong agree, Edwards.
It did but shame on anyone who voted for Trump a corrupt incompetent convicted felon who tried to overthrow democracy on 1/6 which should have automatically been disqualifying over a well qualified Harris.
I will listen to the podcast later but to answer your question, yes it did. That combined with Biden’s team’s hubris about his failing health and an unfortunate weak candidate, not by her own doing. The question then becomes, how do we prevent this from happening again. It’s like slavery, if we don’t address it and own it, we become complicit in denying history and its implications on humanity.
Ilan, Mazel Tov to your daughter on her high school graduation. And Jeremy, I hope that you and your kiddos are having fun “Dancing in the Dark” tonight at the Springsteen concert.
As a native Chicagoan and lifelong fan of Da Bulls, I could not care less about the fate of the New York Knickerbockers in the NBA playoffs. But, I have always been a fan of former NJ Senator “Dollar” Bill Bradley.
Also, it is the Netanyahu regime that is a cancer on the international Jewish community, not the wonderful folks at J Street.
Regarding Israel-Palestine in American politics, I realize the issue is a complicated one from both a policy and political standpoint. But, if anyone thinks that a Democrat can get elected as President without appropriately addressing the plight of the Palestinians in his or her campaign “(He or she has) got another thing comin’!”
No Retreat, No Surrender,
David Hurwitz
Chicago, IL
It’s not complicated.
It’s never been complicated.
On that point, Parrhizzia, I would respectfully disagree with you, because I think that if the issue were that simple it would have been resolved a long time ago.
Also, please forgive me for taking so long to respond to your question regarding Zionism and Judaism. It is an extremely difficult one for me to articulate a proper answer to and, hence, I have been procrastinating on formulating a response to it.
Best,
David
Sorry, but Ilan Goldberg "doesn't have the data" to explore the claim that Harris's position on Gaza or lack thereof may have cost her the election? Why not? There is good data available: https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling
And - I do agree that more than taking a position Harris and the Dems needed to do better policy-wise. Even as a lame duck Biden could have stopped the flow of the weapons that enabled the genocide - he didn't. Not only that, but he and most Dems actively prevented dialogue or action about that possibility or involving the Leahy laws, etc.
This is where you come in, J-Street! Accountability means withdrawing your support from Dems who voted against Sanders' JRDs and actively supporting candidates who are primary-ing establishment Dems and who have better policy commitments on restricting the very arms to Israel that are enabling ONGOING genocide in Gaza and now th Gaza-fication of southern Lebanon.
Stop acting you don't have power! Failure to use that power has and is costing lives.
Can’t find J street daily link?
https://substack.com/@teeashby/note/c-266279142?r=3hh94p&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
J Street overwhelmingly comes across as partisan as a vehicle to win Jewish votes for